“International Bear Brotherhood” Part 2

“International Bear Brotherhood”
Part 2

Excerpted from Bears on Bears: Interviews & Discussions by Ron Jackson Suresha, including additional original material unpublished in the book.

Discussions with:
Eduardo Chavez (Mexico) • Seumas Hyslop (Australia) • Xavier Navarro (Spain) • Marcelo P (Argentina) • Glen Purdon (South Africa) • Mali Sahin (Turkey) • Woody Shimko (U.S./Japan) • Justin Spooner (Wales)

Go to: Part 1 •  Part 3 •  Part 4 •  Contributor biographies

Ron:  Okay, let’s move from the Far East to Eurasia. Mali, would you tell us about the formation of Bears of Turkey?

Mali (Turk.):  The idea of forming a Bear group in Turkey was born when I met “Halfbear,” a Turkish guy, on BML in 1997. We spent many hours talking about foreigner Bears, their meetings, and the Bear movement. We decided to tell other people we know (mostly on IRC [Internet Relay Chat]) about Bears. We each had a personal Webpage in those days, which had a little information about Bears. We targeted men who are Bears but who never heard about Bears before.

Ron:  When was the initial group meeting?

Mali (Turk.):  When our number reached ten, we decided to meet in person and do a little “session.” Our first attempt in July 1998 failed, but we managed to meet that September. More than ten men were invited but only six showed up. Six was a good number for the start. We announced it on BML and got many supporting responses from all around the world — many of them are still listed on our Website.

Ron:  So, in Turkey, as elsewhere, the Internet was fundamental in the formation of the group.

Mali (Turk.):  Yes, it was. Our group is still an Internet-based group.

Ron:  Xavi, please tell us about the development of Bears in Spain.

Xavi (Sp.):  The Internet also bore the embryo of the Spanish Bear movement. Here’s a quick timeline: In 1995, the first Spanish Bear page, “Osos ibèricos,” was created. In 1998, a friend of mine started Gorditos Girth & Mirth club in Madrid, but he hasn’t had success in getting people to join. In 1999, “El hombre y el oso” — first Spanish self-proclaimed “Bear-bar” — opened in Sevilla. Also, a bar in Costa del Sol created its own Bearclub just for the bar. In 2000, the first Bearclub in Spain, Bearcelona, opened as a legal nonprofit organization. “Gay_osos” IRC [Internet Relay Chat] channel Webpage became Spanish Bears resource page. Plans for more Bearclubs. That’s the history.

Ron:  Finally, we return to Anglo-bears. Justin, what has been your experience of the Bear scene in England?

Justin (U.K.):  There is quite a flourishing Bearclub in Manchester, England, called Paws. They arrange a number of events throughout the year, most notably the Great British Bear Bash. My experiences were in London and Manchester, 1997-99. Mainly Manchester, because that is where I used to live.

Ron:  How did you participate in the Bearclub activities there?

Justin (U.K.):  I’d say that I attended, rather than participated, in events. I felt very involved in the Bear community, but only in the sense of “hanging out” with all my Bearish mates when I went out on the town. I could always find someone to talk to when I visited the local bars and clubs, just because I was a Bear.

Ron:  How did that make you feel?

Justin (U.K.):  I felt valued and accepted, and recognized as a Bear by other facets of the GLB community too, though perhaps not involved in their scene.

Ron:  Has your contact with Bears helped you with your own self-image issues?

Justin (U.K.):  Yes, I’ve become a lot more comfortable with my appearance. I even used to dance with my shirt off in the clubs. I’d never have done that before.

Ron:  Were the British Bearclubs more social or sexual?

Justin (U.K.):  They were quite sexual, in fact sometimes too sexual, considering I was in a monogamous relationship. It was kind of off-putting sometimes.

Ron:  How so?

Justin (U.K.):  Well, one extreme would be Bear saunas — there are a few bathhouses that have regular Bear nights. I think you’d be putting a target on your ass if you went to one of those. Clearly, some of those events weren’t for “married” Bears. Most other events were similarly geared to sex, such as dark-room parties. There were some other nonsexual events though, mainly involving music and beer.

Ron:  Did you feel the Bearclubs there you experienced were limited in scope?

Justin (U.K.):  I do think partnered Bears felt excluded a little. I’d like to have had more events that involved socializing, rather than screwing.

Ron:  Do you and your partner now hang out with other Welsh Bears?

Justin (U.K.):  I used to regularly attend Bear events in the U.K., then I moved too far away from any clubs and events. L So all that is left is to start something ourselves.

Ron:  Xavi, would you care to do a quick “Europe Bear roundup”?

Xavi (Sp.):  I only know Italian, French, and Portuguese Bear scenes well. The things for other countries are secondhand, but we have a lot of tourists here who inform me. Culturally, we have a lot of affinity with Italians and Portuguese. The Italian Bear scene is quite similar to Spain, but more organized. Portugal is building things, but it’s largely an effort of two guys. The Portuguese Bear scene is small. They’ve had a lot of problems setting up anything there, since it’s a very conservative country. France is relatively new to the Bear scene, despite the large number of Bears. I think the French resist Bearclubs because the people are too individualistic. Paris boasts the best Bear-bar in Europe. Now, Holland is a great example. Their Bearclubs work hard and get along with all the gay associations in everything. Belgium has relatively little Bear stuff, although Europe’s biggest Bear event is organized by Girth & Mirth of Belgium. As far as Eastern Europe — well, they have to do like Spain: first normalize all liberties, then work at attaining gay rights, and then see what happens with Bears. In a country such as Morocco, well, being gay is a crime, but in their culture, as long as you aren’t effeminate, you aren’t gay.

Ron:  That brings me to my next general question: To what extent has traditional male, or “macho” ideas in your culture affected your ideas of masculinity? How does that fit in with your view of Bear culture, and of yourself as a Bear?

Ed (Mex.):  There’s a saying here: “The man and the bear, the uglier the better,” but the Bears have adapted it: “The man and the Bear, the hairier the better.”

Xavi (Sp.):  Eduardo and I belong to the most macho Western culture!

Ron:  Rather macho of you to assert that so proudly, Xavi.  😉

Mali (Turk.):  Same culture here.

Xavi (Sp.):  “Macho” is a Spanish word! Machos hit their wives, spit on the floor, insult a lot, and are rude.

Seumas (Aus.):  And what’s positive about that?

Xavi (Sp.):  What’s positive? That depends. I’ve grown up with a very progressive education and was always told I didn’t have to act like a “macho” to be masculine. I mean, as a man I don’t have to spit, swear, fart, and so on. It’s a big revolution in Spain.

Ron:  So, traditional Spanish masculinity is changing, it sounds like.

Mali (Turk.):  Do macho men there fuck men to prove that they’re more “man” than others?

Xavi (Sp.):  Nope, Mali. Here they say, “Maricún o maricona, es tan gay el que da como el que toma” — “Queer or fag, the one who gives is as gay as the one who receives.”

Mali (Turk.):  Here that’s not the case. In our culture, the word “gay” means “a bottom homosexual.” A man who is a top does not count himself as gay here.

Xavi (Sp.):  So too in Spain, but traditionally there has been an image of moustachioed gay that was not effeminate. That’s the ancestor of Bears in our culture. Nowadays, the image of gays here is that of a very effeminate TV showman named “Boris Izaguirre” who works with the yellow press, in all her glamour.

Seumas (Aus.):  Australian culture has always coped with gender fluidity a little better than most, and Sydney particularly. This city has a strong “drag” and transsexual culture, and it’s not just in the gay & lesbian community. For years in Kings Cross [district] there was a cabaret club called “Les Girls,” where straight men, football teams, and similar types would go and watch drag and transsexual performers on stage, and they loved it. Remember, this was the country that spawned the film, The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

Ron:  Mali, Turkish culture holds some relatively long-standing homomasculine traditions, correct?

Mali (Turk.):  In order to get to the root of our cultural sense of masculinity, I have to tell about Ottoman Empire days, I think. Ottomans ruled between 1299 and 1923, until the foundation of Turkish Republic. There was a special division in the Ottoman army called oglan ocagi, meaning “boy school.” This school educated young boys to service soldiers when the army was away from home. Thus, in their Army, the government actually sanctioned same-sex relations. The reputation of hamams (baths) in Turkey also comes from the Ottomans. The hamam “tellaks” were young boys who not only helped men bathe; they also served as male prostitutes. At the end of 19th century, the Ottomans decided to send some intellectuals to France to learn their culture. When they returned to help rebuild their homeland, the customs brought from France affected the empire in many ways, one of which was about this oglan ocagi and gay life in Ottoman land. The oglan ocagi was closed, and man-to-man sex in hamams was banned, too. After then, to many people, “gay” denoted a bottom man, and those who were considered tops did not count as gay. Later this gay image became a generalized stereotype of feminine bottoms.

Ron:  Thank you, Mali. It’s important, I feel, to understand the cultural influences behind the construction of our sense of masculinity.

Ed (Mex.):  On Bears and machismo: When we started the Osos Mexicanos, I was still scared of being gay, so I stated that a Bear is a man who thinks like a man, who looks like a man, and who likes men. Now I realize that Bears are just gay guys with beards and fur, entitled to be whatever they like to be. Masculinity sure helps differentiate between the common gay and Bears, because we look more butch, meaner, and masculine, but we all know Bears can be bitches too. A lot of people hide undercover in an exaggerated masculinity to not be considered effeminate. I know lots of Bears that don’t like effeminate people, especially femmy Bears. I think that’s why Bears are so welcome in society, and why lots of people want to be considered Bears – because they “stay within the society’s guidelines of macho-ness,” yet they are gay.

Ron:  So being a Bear, to these people, means being able to deny their own feminine aspects and to piss on women otherwise? And that’s what makes them socially acceptable?

Ed (Mex.):  I guess macho-ism got to us all and that’s why we make Bears overmasculine — to set us apart from the rest of gay culture so that we’ll feel that we “fit in.” Let us remember that machismo dictates that “Men fuck and are always top, and gays are effeminate and are always bottom.” Lots of Bears will only top so they don’t feel they’re contradicting their manliness or something like that. Pretty twisted stuff.

Xavi (Sp.):  And in Mexico, you don’t say that about “tanto es el que da como el que toma” [“the one who gives is as gay as the one who receives”]? It is quite an old phrase.

Ed (Mex.):  No. Here, it is more rejected to be a bottom than to be a top. If you fuck, you’re a man; if you get fucked, well, you’re fucked!

Justin (U.K.):  In the U.K., there’s no difference between top and bottom in the “manliness” stakes — most Bears here are seen as equal. To the rest of the gay community, Bears are seen as the more masculine end of the spectrum.

Ron:  Seumas, what about the concept of “mateship” in your culture?

Seumas (Aus.):  Australia is traditionally an egalitarian society, and that tends to hold true in Bear culture. It doesn’t seem to matter who you are or what you do – when you turn up to a club night or a major Bear event in Australia, there will be people who will walk up to you and say hello. Everyone’s equal: we’re all “mates.”

Ron:  Glen, what are some of the traditional views of masculinity in your culture there? Are they mostly aligned with European ideas?

Glen (S.A.):  I would think they would come down from our forefathers — either from the U.K., Germany, or Netherlands. We also tend to see a lot of American and British TV, which reinforces those ideas.

Ron:  Marcelo, to what extent has traditional male or “macho” ideas in your culture affected your sense of masculinity?

Marcelo (Arg.):  My ideas of masculinity are mainly drawn from TV series (U.S., by the way) and football players. Sure, traditional values must have affected my ideas. I have always lived in Buenos Aires and here the “macho” ideas are not as strong as in many other areas. I’m not trying to be the ultimate macho man!

End of Part 2

Go to: Part 1 •  Part 3 •  Part 4 •  Contributor biographies

Excerpted from the complete interview, with additional material previously unpublished, in Bears on Bears: Interviews & Discussions, by Ron Jackson Suresha. Copyright © 2002  Ron Jackson Suresha. All rights reserved.